Near Carriere, MS on 18 April 2008
I’m actually not sure how to take this church sign. On the one hand, it’s right. Science, by its very nature can only go so far. Science, by definition, is only concerned with naturalistic explanations. Anything beyond that is simply beyond the scope of science to even investigate much less draw any conclusions about. Gould’s Non-overlapping Magisteria.
So if you postulate some supernatural entity (a god), then you are right to say that science cannot prove it doesn’t exist. Hell, science can’t even tell you the first thing about it. However, once you start to make factual claims about this god or it’s actions, such as a global flood, a 6-day creation, stopping the sun from moving across the sky, etc, then science can certainly address these. In other words, don’t play the “you can’t disprove a god” canard then claim this makes your assertion of Jehovah likely. I may not be able to disprove the Deist’s God, but the followers of Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah have left too much in the way of factual claims around to even leave the possibility of his existence in doubt.
But on the other hand, the sign insinuates that there is something beyond nature that we need to be asking about. In other words, it’s taken at face value that there is something supernatural out there that science cannot address. My question is “What makes you think so?” Asking a question like that is like asking what color is Tuesday. It’s a nonsense question. By it’s very definition, it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. The religionists are right when they say God is beyond our comprehension. What I find so odd is that even this admission doesn’t slow them down in their insistence that they know his mind well enough to impose his will on us all.
As an aside, I actually dig the Bible verse on the sign. It was one of my favorites when I was a Christian and one I’m still partial to. No reason not to take wisdom wherever you can find it.
Tags: science, religion, Mississippi, supernatural, god, evidence, bible, church, reason
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14 comments:
When I first read the sign, I immediately thought of the same two things you did. How very true and how very false!
I think the reason why we're having such poor relations with the religious communities is because so many people do not understand science and fear that trusting in science alone will lead to immorality. As I've said a million times, education is the answer to that problem. Why else would the Religious Right attack education so much?
As for religious wisdom, I have found inspiration in many different religious writings. While I don't think religion has anything to tell us about the facts of our existence, I do think it can accurately describe many of our emotional experiences. As long as I know the difference between objective fact and subjective feeling, I believe I can read these things without falling prey to dogma.
You nailed it with a reference to Gould's Non-overlapping Magisteria. Dawkins disagreed with Gould for much of the same reasons you spell out in your post. Once the theist starts making claims about supernatural events in a natural world, it falls under the domain of science. This is where science and religion overlap.
I agree with agnosticat completely - this is why solid secular education is so important. Science must not be a scary unknown but the source of much of what we enjoy on a daily basis.
Science has benefited greatly from the Christian religion throughout Europe and America for hundreds of years. The earliest universities in America were started by Christian denominations.
Indeed education would certainly help in many ways. I for one am not impressed with education because it is failing in educating not because of your unfounded assertion. There needs to be much more discipline, accountability, and teaching of the basics (including science) rather than left wing political dogma and PC propaganda. Then maybe they would have time to teach science, math, history, and English.
The fear of Christians imposing their will is laughable. In our country we are in the process of rushing full speed ahead into a coercive and socialistic system of government where the traditional freedoms we have know will be terminated one by one, and yet many people are concerned about religion and corporations. I was an agnostic for over 40 years and I never saw religion or corporation interfere with my freedom in any way. I saw capitalism provide America with the greatest prosperity that the world has ever known. However, during the same period I have seen the ever growing government interfere more and more with my freedom through regulation, taxation, restrictions, etc
I wonder if they really mean science goes too far. Any time science expanded the realm of knowledge it was at the cost of intruding in what the church considered God's territory.
Jazzycat,
To say science has benefited from Christianity is true, but it has also suffered greatly. If you say Christianity is less toxic to reason and rational thought than many other religions, I’ll have to agree, but you have to be willfully ignorant to ignore the retarding of scientific progress by the Christian church over the past 2,000 years. From geocentrism, to creationism, to stem cell research, your religion’s hands are red. Tue enough, many of our great institutions of higher learning were founded by Christians. Thanks, we appreciate that. I fail to see how this has the slightest bit to do with this post.
Please tell me what “unfounded assertion” I’ve made in regards to education. Seriously, that’s not rhetorical. Tell me.
The rest of your semi-coherent comment is just a collection of red herrings. For the record, I’m a bona-fide capitalist who sees the increasing socialization of America as the second greatest internal threat to our nation’s liberty, so you can drop the stereotyping of us as leftwing demagogues. Do you care to actually address the points made in the post itself by chance?
The unfounded assertion is that you said, the Christian religion has imposed its will on us.
The Christian religion also has not imposed creationism or affected stem cell research in any way. In our free democratic society elected representatives set policy. We are a country of laws that are based on ethical principles. Many non-Christians may have ethical standards you don't like as well. Christians, as individuals have every right to participate in the political arena and support and vote for political leaders just like anyone else. I, like you, do not want any organized church having any input in government.
If you want to talk about blood on hands, I would suggest you consider the killing of innocent unborn children through abortion and especially partial birth abortion. This is an example of an ethical principle that cannot be put into a religious box.
My experience has been that nearly all of the atheists I have debated have been very liberal. Glad you are not in that camp........
Jazzycat (I like your pic),
Am I reading your post right? You seem to be saying that no Christians have ever tried to push their views onto America through politics. We all know this is untrue and could cite countless examples.
You also seem to be saying that we are trying to keep Christians from voting or having a say in politics. I don't think such an action is either possible or desirable. People should always be free to speak their minds and make political decisions based on their values; however, they are not allowed to inject religion into the law and force others to comply.
I feel that you are also laying the blame for abortion at our feet as if this is some kind of evil instigated by atheists. There are many pro-choice Christians and other pro-choice religious people in the world too.
Lastly, I am saddened by your use of the word "liberal" as if it were something dirty. I consider myself a liberal although I expect you'd find me not nearly as whacky as some conservatives claim we are. During your stay here, I hope you'll try to look beyond labels such as "atheist" and "liberal" and try to see the people instead.
If I have misinterpreted any of your remarks, please correct me. In cases like this, I enjoy being wrong.
Ah, Jazzycat, I see. It wasn’t Christendom that was behind creationism after all. Who, pray tell, was? And of course there are differences between an individual voting their values that just happen to be based on religious belief and theocrats. But you aren’t seriously saying that there is not a long and detailed history of Christians in America going far beyond that and making laws that explicitly codified Biblical law as civil law. Think about how many times people have tried to force the Ten Commandments in government buildings, saying outright that they want our laws based on them directly. Think about Mike Huckabee plainly stating that he wanted to change the US Constitution to reflect “Biblical law.” I could go on.
agnosticat and Butch,
My point is that many people have ethical standards and policy they would like to see government adopt. Unless a Christian holds an elected office, all he can do is lobby for laws he/she wants just like anyone else. To somehow make it seem like Christians have a fast track for making public policy is incorrect. There are many groups other than Christians that vote and lobby successfully for laws and policy such as labor unions, corporations, small business groups, trial lawyers, welfare advocates and so on. Why is Christian lobbying in less valid?
Even when I was an agnostic I had a much greater fear of the policies that some of these groups wanted than Christians. Some of these groups want to tax hard working people to provide all kinds of benefits for people who don’t pay taxes.
Laws against murder, stealing, and for equal justice under the law all have Christian roots. Does that automatically make them bad? I believe the Ten Commandments are displayed on many buildings in Washington as we speak. Christians have no more power to pass legislation than does the groups that I have already mentioned.
Some of the legislation these groups want scare me just as much as Christian legislation scare you. Bad public policy from any special interest group should be opposed by everyone. Do you believe Christians are monolithic in their thinking? Do you think they are all intent on some kind of theocracy? Although I am conservative in theology and politics, I am very troubled by Pat Robertson and his type of Christian.
No I am not laying abortion at the feet of atheists……..
Thanks for allowing my comments….
Jazzycat said:
“Laws against murder, stealing, and for equal justice under the law all have Christian roots.”
Surely you jest. From what I recall from Sunday School those were established well before Christ was even a twinkle I Jehovah’s eye. But since you brought that up, it presents a troubling question. If laws like those are based on the Ten Commandments does that mean the Hebrews went around killing, stealing, and generally being assholes before they made it to Mt. Sinai?
Plus, we know that behavior is basically universal in humans and laws against murder, stealing, etc have existed in every culture, and clearly predate both Christianity and Judaism. How can a law have roots in Christianity when it existed for thousands of years before even Judaism existed?
I think what you mean to say is that the men who wrote those laws were (mostly) Christians. But don’t forget these pious men also practiced slavery, treated women as second-class citizens, and other things we now consider immoral. In a thousand ways our morality has evolved well past that of our founding fathers, and even more so past what is found in the Bible.
Jazzycat,
I understand that not all Christians think alike. I would never insinuate this since my entire family is Christian and they do not appreciate the Pat Robertsons of the world either.
As I said before, Christians have the same right as everyone else to lobby for laws and public policies that they believe in. However, they cannot try to push these laws in on a religious basis alone. There must be other shared secular values behind the push so that religion is not endorsed.
Since about 80% of the nation is Christian, I'd say that such a large majority does have the power to push their religion into government if they choose to. It's only because of the wisdom of our Founders and the courage of our contemporaries that this hasn't happened any more than it already has. Not to say that all Christians want a theocracy but the loudest ones among them sure seem to.
Thanks for sharing your ideas in a calm, kind way.
Butch and agnosticat,
Thanks. I may drop in from time to time.
BTW, according to the Bible Christianity started before the world began Eph. 1:4........
Gould is full of it, he's smoked too much monkey grass. Supposedly science cannot explain "supernatural" but there is no supernatural there are only things science has yet to explain. Many things use to be seen as spiritual that we now know are very based in the natural - not supernatural world.
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