Comments on Mississippi Atheists: A Non-Believer in Church: Latter-day Saints in Oxf...

While you're reading about Joseph, you might want ...

2008-07-11T09:25:00.000-05:00

While you're reading about Joseph, you might want to pick up Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling which is being heralded and widely-acclaimed by Mormons and non-Mormons alike as the latest definitive biography of the prophet.

In order to understand the LDS church and its biza...

2008-07-11T07:10:00.000-05:00

In order to understand the LDS church and its bizarre and foolish roots, you must read Fawn Brodie's astonishing biography of Joseph Smith, No Man Knows My History. Mormonism is fairly unusual among religious sects in that its origins are well-documented, and you can see how a religion started by a con man eventually came to be dogma for millions.

After Brodie, the next thing to read is Simon Southerton's Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church, which definitively proves that much of Mormon dogma about the history of the New World is completely bogus.

Finally, read Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, an exposé of modern Mormon polygamists and their appalling behavior.

@bryce haymond-
Thanks for the insight into Tem...

2008-07-05T00:19:00.000-05:00

@bryce haymond-
Thanks for the insight into Temple service. Speaking as an atheist, much of what you said is too absurd for me to accept. I appreciate your feedback.

The temple is extremely important to members of th...

2008-07-03T12:32:00.000-05:00

The temple is extremely important to members of the LDS Church. Like ancient Israel, Judaism, and early Christianity, temples form the center of our religious life. It is the place where sacred ordinances are performed on our own behalf, and on behalf of the deceased, to redeem us and them from sin and help bring us all back into the presence of God. Like many ancient civilizations, the temple creates a space that separates the sacred from the profane. It is literally the "House of the Lord," where His presence dwells. It is a mirror of heaven.

We serve there only once performing the ordinances for ourselves, but thereafter each time we go to the temple we perform the ordinances on behalf of someone who has died. We do this because we believe these ordinances are required for salvation and exaltation, but many people who lived in the past never had the chance to hear and accept these same blessings. Thus we stand in a vicarious role, making an offering of the blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ to those who didn't have the chance to accept them during their mortal life. Christ began this ministry among the dead after his death (1 Peter 3:18-20; 1 Peter 4:6). We continue this redemption of the dead since Christ's organization of it, and through continual revelation to living prophets and apostles. Consequently, our service in the temple is the pinnacle of service to the poor, indeed, the "poor in spirit" (Matt. 5:3). There are many who have passed from this world who are, in a very real way, poor, because they had no chance to partake of the saving ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ in mortality, and cannot return to God's presence without them. We serve millions of people in this capacity all around the world in our temples each day.

Outside of the temple we also do a great humanitarian work. Members of the Church donate 10% of their gross income in tithing to the Church, and also give other donations in fast offerings, time, talents, skills, and other areas. The Church uses some of these donations to assist the poor. Since 1985 the Church has given over $1 billion in cash and material humanitarian assistance, as well as our time and talents, to the poor, disaster areas, hunger and famine areas, disease-stricken areas, and other areas of need all around the world.

Indeed, our service to others is universal, both to those who need it on earth, and to those who have passed to the other side of the veil. Service to God and our fellow man is one in the same, much more than we realize (Matt. 22:36-40; cf. Mosiah 2:16-19).

Whew! This was a popular post. Thanks to everyone ...

2008-07-03T10:49:00.000-05:00

Whew! This was a popular post. Thanks to everyone who commented.

@Mormons Are Christian -
Thanks for your persuasive arguments that Mormons are indeed also Christians. I agree. I agree. I agree.

@eds -
I must admit that I am ignorant of the Bahá'í faith. Thanks for your comments, and if I ever get a chance to visit a Bahá'í service, I will.

@sheisrobo -
I liked this about the LDS church. There is no set preacher. Everyone is responsible for the teaching of everyone else. You had good thoughts.

@init 6
You say that you have left the LDS church. Did that have anything to do with the theology found in the Bible or The Book of Mormon or something else?

@howard
I don't like to use the word "cult". It carries too much negative weight. I used it here because that's the impression I was given. I have received some negative feedback from my visits to churches, so the shock they feel is passed on to me. Thanks for the support!

@vjack -
Yep yep. When you feel that I'm being too nice, let me know.

@bryce haymond -
In the service that I attended, the speaker said that service to the Temple is the most important service that we can provide. Is this opinion common across members of the LDS church? Why is service to the Temple held in higher regard than, say, service to the poor?

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused ...

2008-07-02T06:41:00.000-05:00

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

• Baptism: .

Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

• The Trinity: .

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one."

Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .

Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God." . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.

• The Deity of Jesus Christ

Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .

The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

• Definition of “Christian”: .

But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.

It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

• The Parallel with the “Rise of Christianity”

Rodney Stark in his book “The Rise of Christianity” found parallels with the rise of Mormonism:
A similar growth rate (40 percent for Christianity, and 43 percent for Mormonism) for both nascent religious movements. Conversions proceeded along social networking lines, primarily. While Christianity retained Jews’ belief in the Old Testament, Mormonism retains Creedal Christians’ belief in both the New and Old Testaments. The Romans martyred the Christian leaders, the mobs in Missouri and Illinois martyred the Mormon leaders. In both cases, they expected the fledgling movements to fail without their leaders.

• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:

The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this:

"There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.)

Martin Luther had similar thoughts: "Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,...unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation."

He also wrote: "I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among
those who should have preserved it."

The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.

* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:

The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):

1. Attend Religious Services weekly
2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
3. Believes in life after death
4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
5. Has taught religious education classes
6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
7. Sabbath Observance
8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality

LDS Evangelical
1. 71% 55%
2. 52 28
3. 76 62
4. 100 95
5. 42 28
6. 68 22
7. 67 40
8. 72 56
9. 50 19
10. 65 26
11. 84 35

So what do you think the motivation is for the Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts” in Christian characteristics. (see http://MormonTeenagers.blogspot.com)

It seems obvious pastors shouldn't be denigrating a church based on First Century Christianity, with high efficacy. The only plausible reason to denigrate Mormons is for Evangelical pastors to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

I'm a Baha'i. As a Baha'i, I believe in the Unity ...

2008-07-02T02:29:00.000-05:00

I'm a Baha'i. As a Baha'i, I believe in the Unity of Science and Religion. One of the Central Figures of my Faith teaches "There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance."

I don't wish to initiate debate. Rather, I just want more people to be aware of that God exalts science and I hope our conversation and mutual understanding may grow.

In case you don't see a need to reply, I want to say thank you for your commitment to truth. I believe in the scientific method and search for Truth; a path which I believe we share.

I'm an active (convert) member of the LDS church. ...

2008-07-01T19:17:00.000-05:00

I'm an active (convert) member of the LDS church. I typically don't look around me for "strangers" to greet when I go to church. It's not my style regardless of my religion. Kids are important and included in our services, which does make it noisy in family wards, but we view the noise as just part of family life...our Wards are our families, too. It's not our "style" to impress or to insist on silence for those who are too young to understand. Youth speakers (ages 12-17) are given opportunities to speak just as adult speakers. This teaches the Youth how to research a topic to learn more about it, and how to relay it to an audience while at the same time honing public speaking skills. It's a great skill to learn and we are tolerant of our youth who are practicing and learning. Adult speakers have the same responsibility to research and learn, and then relay what they've learned. Not everyone relays the information well, nor are they great public speakers...but they try and they do their best. To me, it's more important that they've learned something of the Gospel than they've relayed it perfectly to me.
robo

I was also raised as a Mormon (standard as well) i...

2008-07-01T15:58:00.000-05:00

I was also raised as a Mormon (standard as well) in Utah. My mother wasn't really Mormon but the rest of my family is. If they new that you were coming they would have put on a show. but it seams you surprised them.

In Utah, they have services what don't have kids it's for 19 to 30 year olds with no kids called singles ward. I think they made a movie on it.

I am a full out atheist now. But I was cought up in all that BS for 17 years created a few metal issues what took a while to get over. Anyways if you ever have any questions about the LDS church and you want a true honest opinion on them I will be more then happy to answer any question.

coldcarbon[at]gmail[dot]com

Ah ... what a nostalgic laugh I had reading your p...

2008-07-01T14:56:00.000-05:00

Ah ... what a nostalgic laugh I had reading your perspective. I was raised a Mormon (standard / non-polygamous) and any group who doesn't look critically at themselves get shocked when an outsider holds up a mirror.

But Mormons are encouraged to have as many children as is humanly possible, and then to drag them all into the noisiest meeting they can muster. They then give sermons to each other, and as you noticed, even the children participate.

Are Mormons a cult? Depends on your definition. Mormons do have quite a few cult-like aspects... but of course, most Mormons would deny that even if you hold up a mirror.

I just can't imagine the misery you are inflicting on yourself by going to all of the churches. Kinda like that "Supersize Me" movie, eh?

I am certainly no expert on Mormons, but my guess ...

2008-07-01T07:36:00.000-05:00

I am certainly no expert on Mormons, but my guess would be that those at the church you attended mostly knew each other and weren't sure what to make of you. I think Mormon communities tend to be pretty tight, especially in areas where there aren't very many of them. I also imagine that they are used to being the targets of bigotry in Mississippi. Most of the evangelicals around here probably view them as only marginally better than us.

I'm a member of the LDS Church. What would you li...

2008-07-01T06:30:00.000-05:00

I'm a member of the LDS Church. What would you like to know?